Googles Guild Wars gold ADs - Guild Wars Forums

Drithlan · Nov 29, 2006, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Google AdWords TaC Section 4 Subsection (z)

(z) any Use hereunder and Customer's Creative, Targets, and Customer's Services will not violate or encourage violation of any applicable laws, regulations, code of conduct, or third party rights (including without limitation intellectual property rights).

Do you know if the people using Google Ad's to sell Guild Wars gold are violating quoted text by going against Guild Wars EULA section 7. I'm sorry if this is the wrong place to put this but I know it should not be allowed to advertise what they are not allowed to sell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild Wars EULA

7. OFFICIAL SERVICE

The Game(s) is designed for official play only as offered through the Service by NC Interactive at the Web Site and not through any other means. You further agree not to access, create or provide any other means through which Game(s) may be played by others, as through server emulators. You agree not to use any hardware or software, including but not limited to third party tools, or any other method of support which may in any way influence or advantage your use of the Service which is not authorized by NC Interactive, including but not limited to the use of 'bots' and/or any other method by which the Service may be played automatically without human input. You acknowledge that you do not have the right to create, publish, distribute, create derivative works from or use any software programs, utilities, applications, emulators or tools derived from or created for the Game(s), except that you may use the Software to the extent expressly permitted by this Agreement. You may not take any action which imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our infrastructure. You may not sell or auction any Game(s) accounts, characters, items, coin or copyrighted material, nor may you assist others in doing so.

Enko · Nov 29, 2006, 08:32 AM // 08:32

yes they're violating the EULA but those people selling are probably making more money than having to purchase another copy to continue selling . ..

Drithlan · Nov 29, 2006, 08:45 AM // 08:45

I know they are violating Guild Wars EULA but in doing so are they violating Googles UA?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Google AdWords TaC Section 4 Subsection (z)

(z) any Use hereunder and Customer's Creative, Targets, and Customer's Services will not violate or encourage violation of any applicable laws, regulations, code of conduct, or third party rights (including without limitation intellectual property rights).

mrgoat · Nov 29, 2006, 02:28 PM // 14:28

I think google means those in the "legally enforceable" sense. In the legal sense, I don't think gold sellers are violating any laws by selling gold. Nor is Anet violating any laws by enforcing their EULA. EULA's are still on shaky ground concerning how binding they are/can be.

Besides, the gold seller may not even have a GW account - they could be brokering the transaction for someone who does, and therefore the gold seller wouldn't ever have agreed to the GW EULA in the first place.

I guess the answer is "sometimes".

Xenex Xclame · Nov 29, 2006, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Its not sometimes, it is simply yes they are violating googles agreement.

regulations, code of conduct, or third party rights (including without limitation intellectual property rights).

In plain english it is saying that you are not allowed to use google to break rules of other places.Reporting these ads , as most of them are fully automated, probably gets them removed, it doesnt stop the gold sellers as they just get a new add.

Erudition · Nov 29, 2006, 04:58 PM // 16:58

The EULA gives ANet a justifiable reason to ban offenders. Of course, they can ban whoever they want, but they might not necessarily be able to give a valid reason and lose credibility..

Also, I'm not sure what a EULA's place is in the law... *does some research* *when he finds time*

mrgoat · Nov 29, 2006, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

Its not sometimes, it is simply yes they are violating googles agreement.

regulations, code of conduct, or third party rights (including without limitation intellectual property rights).

In plain english it is saying that you are not allowed to use google to break rules of other places.Reporting these ads , as most of them are fully automated, probably gets them removed, it doesnt stop the gold sellers as they just get a new add.

It can't be just any code of conduct that's observed. Anet has no right, at least under U.S. law, as I understand it, to stop someone from *advertising* gold on google, and if the one doing the advertising never agreed to the GW EULA, they've broken no code of conduct nor regulation, nor even intellectual property right. Arenanet, I think, has every right to stop the transfer of the in-game gold, and to ban whatever accounts/etc. were involved.

Now, I don't think they should advertise gold, or that google should particularly let them, but they can't very well break arenanet's code of conduct without agreeing to it. You can indeed use google to "break the rules of other places". I've seen porn ads on google, for instance, which break the rules/codes of conduct of a great many other organisations. Hell, I can go break chinese law right now if I want, with a google ad. All I've got to do is advertise a history book that covers modern chinese history.

So, I still think the answer is "murky" and "sometimes". If the one doing the advertising has a guildwars account, then I think they're definitely breaking google's rules, if they're just brokering, then I think probably not. Arenanet makes a EULA with a code of conduct, they have no way of ever enforcing it on someone who didn't even buy the game. I think it all just depends on the affiliations people have.

Xenex Xclame · Nov 29, 2006, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrgoat

It can't be just any code of conduct that's observed. Anet has no right, at least under U.S. law, as I understand it, to stop someone from *advertising* gold on google, and if the one doing the advertising never agreed to the GW EULA, they've broken no code of conduct nor regulation, nor even intellectual property right. Arenanet, I think, has every right to stop the transfer of the in-game gold, and to ban whatever accounts/etc. were involved.

Indeed Anet may have no power here , but thats where Googles comes in If they sell gold in game Anet stops them, if they sell gold on Google, Google stops them.

Like you said its not law, but in the law Anet has the right to do (almost)whatever they want with your account ( not that they would, but they can) thats the only reason you agree to the eula.

Even if you dont agree to the eula and do like you say , im pretty sure its the same as if you did something in real life and get caught you cant use the exucse i didnt know it wasnt allowed, ignorance isnt an excuse

MegaMouse · Nov 29, 2006, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Banning for the sellling of gold is still sticky situation. If you go to E-Bay you will find over 100 instances of gold for sale for several online games and not jus Guild Wars. Are they breakng the EULA, yes, is it worth it to them to continue, if players want to buy gold then the answer is yes, as long as there is a demand for something then the "illegal" activity will continue. In order for the staff at A-Net and NC-Soft to catch the players selling the gold would entitle going to the sellers sites or E-Bay and buying from the seller what this does is catch one account where the seller might have several. Unless players turn in the people that they buy the gold from (who would freely admit to doing that) or NC-Soft nd A-Net take a more active role in catching the players doing such activities it will continue. I am not condoning buying or selling gold through E-Bay or other means but until the trade system tha tcurrently is in place is redone, it will continue. Also I do not believe that A-Net or NC-Soft will take an active role in catching the sellers due to the fact it will take money out of their pockets that they do not want to part with (in order for a seller doing business through E-Bay to give anything away within Guild Wars most require payment before delivery, no money no sale which means that NC-Soft and A-Net will have to part with some cash before they learn the identies of the sellers account).
This might seem like a long rant to most but his is how I feel about the situation.

Mega Mouse

bad person · Nov 29, 2006, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrgoat

So, I still think the answer is "murky" and "sometimes". If the one doing the advertising has a guildwars account, then I think they're definitely breaking google's rules, if they're just brokering, then I think probably not. Arenanet makes a EULA with a code of conduct, they have no way of ever enforcing it on someone who didn't even buy the game. I think it all just depends on the affiliations people have.

At some point there has to be a transfer from the seller to the buyer - that can't be done without an account.

mrgoat · Nov 29, 2006, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

Indeed Anet may have no power here , but thats where Googles comes in If they sell gold in game Anet stops them, if they sell gold on Google, Google stops them.

I think that's incorrect. I don't think google stops them from advertising. I think they might stop them from advertising at Anet's request if Anet can show that the advertiser is breaking some EULA, or some such thing. If google took your gold ads down just because some company says so, then why don't they take all the porn off whenever some church, concerned parent, or hobo off the street says so? If I make a rule that says "No one can ever advertise, distribute, view or aid in the doing so of Pictures of Marmosets", should google remove your ads if you're selling a "2007's Best of Marmosets Calendar"? It's just as valid an edict on you as the GW EULA is on someone who never bought the game.

Quote:

Like you said its not law, but in the law Anet has the right to do (almost)whatever they want with your account ( not that they would, but they can) thats the only reason you agree to the eula.

Sure, I agree with that. Sell gold, get banned. Buy gold, get banned. No problem here. In fact, Anet would be within their rights to ban you for no reason, but they wouldn't, as it'd be daft, and they're nice people there.

Quote:

Even if you dont agree to the eula and do like you say , im pretty sure its the same as if you did something in real life and get caught you cant use the exucse i didnt know it wasnt allowed, ignorance isnt an excuse

It's not ignorance, I just think there's nothing stating that it's not allowed, outside of the EULA. No EULA on you, no breaking google's rule on breaking third party codes of conduct, no reason to take the ads down. You're conflating real life "breaking the law" with "breaking an arbitrary rule that you agree to when opting into a game".

There's a strong argument to be made that google shouldn't take the ads down, unless anet can show that the person posting the ad has agreed to the guild wars EULA.

bog boy · Nov 29, 2006, 06:37 PM // 18:37

people also sell gold on ebay i think this is absolutely outrages and anet needs to do something about it FAST

mrgoat · Nov 29, 2006, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by bad person

At some point there has to be a transfer from the seller to the buyer - that can't be done without an account.

Correct, and not under dispute. We're talking about the person putting up the ads. It's like this: Albert, who never bought the game, puts up an ad. Albert collects $50 from Colin for whatever 50$ buys in gold these days. Albert tells Bob, gives Bob 45$, and Bob goes on his account and transfers the gold to Colin, at Albert's behest.

Bob and Colin have broken the EULA, and should be banned. I think this thread is about what happens to Albert's ads, even before Bob and Colin do their thing. Remember: Albert never even touched a game box. It would not be unsuprising to me that Albert is the guy running a Chinese goldfarm, directing his "workers".

The only section in the adwords rules posted that I think might be applicable is that the ad encourages the ones doing the transfers to break their EULAs.

Tough to pin down, this issue is.

bad person · Nov 29, 2006, 07:01 PM // 19:01

My understanding of how it generally works is that there is a company that farms the gold and then sells it to the Ebay sellers who, in turn, sell it and deliver it. I may be wrong but, based on the guaranteed delivery times that many of the sellers offer, I can't imagine there being another person in the mix.

mrgoat · Nov 29, 2006, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Gold farming is a whole industry. They have whole teams of people going about this. Ebay is one small fraction of the gold market, there's sites set up that do just this business exclusively, have proper bank channels, can take credit transactions on their own, etc. The guaranteed delivery time is almost *proof* that there's more than just the farmers and ebayers involved - They probably have at least a delivery guy, a team of farmers, and a manager who organizes everything.

In fact, some tv station had a documentary on about this the other day, and that's almost exactly what they had.

Don't get me wrong, I also want gold selling gone. I just don't think the issue of the ads is as simple as "That ad is for something Arenanet disallows. It must therefore be removed".

xxSilhouette · Nov 29, 2006, 08:13 PM // 20:13

I've seen WoW and Guild wars Power Leveling/Gold advertised on wiki before o_O Its been a while, but i do remember seeing it there. Personally I don't think even if they stopped advertising it, that it would matter - beacuse someone could still very easily find it.

Xenex Xclame · Nov 29, 2006, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrgoat

I think that's incorrect. I don't think google stops them from advertising. I think they might stop them from advertising at Anet's request if Anet can show that the advertiser is breaking some EULA, or some such thing. If google took your gold ads down just because some company says so, then why don't they take all the porn off whenever some church, concerned parent, or hobo off the street says so? If I make a rule that says "No one can ever advertise, distribute, view or aid in the doing so of Pictures of Marmosets", should google remove your ads if you're selling a "2007's Best of Marmosets Calendar"? It's just as valid an edict on you as the GW EULA is on someone who never bought the game.

Google has to take it down when anet asks them to since it is anet property.
If not Google is helping in the misuse of someone elses property.
If the church, concerned parent , or hobo owned the writes to porn , meaning if porn was theyrs Google would have to do what they say, seeing as porn belongs to everyone and nobody ,nothing google will do about it.
The same thing for the marmosets calendar ( which i have no idea what it is :P ) if you owned the rights the the marmoset calendar then yes, they should remove it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrgoat

It's not ignorance, I just think there's nothing stating that it's not allowed, outside of the EULA. No EULA on you, no breaking google's rule on breaking third party codes of conduct, no reason to take the ads down. You're conflating real life "breaking the law" with "breaking an arbitrary rule that you agree to when opting into a game".

What i mean here ,everyone knows this is not allowed no need to agree to eula,YOU KNOW ITS WRONG.
Even if you didnt know then still the part about Anet owning everything applies, seeing as this concerns something that belongs to them they can do what they want and again if google doesnt help to stop it they are helping in the misuse of someone elses property.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrgoat

There's a strong argument to be made that google shouldn't take the ads down, unless anet can show that the person posting the ad has agreed to the guild wars EULA.

No need to , it concerns something that belongs to Anet.

mrgoat · Nov 29, 2006, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

Google has to take it down when anet asks them to since it is anet property.

The ad is not Arenanet's property. The game is, the ad is not.

Quote:

What i mean here ,everyone knows this is not allowed no need to agree to eula,YOU KNOW ITS WRONG.

There's some debate on this. Some people don't consider it "wrong". It merely violates the EULA. Some people consider gold selling a moral, ethical, worthwhile business, one that employs thousands of people at higher than average pay rates for their areas, that is merely impeded by some game companies "backwards" idea that virtual gold shouldn't be sold for real money.

I am not among those people, but there it is. Arenanet is a game company; not a moral authority.

Quote:

Even if you didnt know then still the part about Anet owning everything applies, seeing as this concerns something that belongs to them they can do what they want and again if google doesnt help to stop it they are helping in the misuse of someone elses property.

They still don't own the ad. They own the game, the servers, the virtual gold, the intellectual property rights to the name, etc. They don't own the ad.

Quote:

No need to , it concerns something that belongs to Anet.

Concerns, but not is. There's no rule, law, or anything else outside of the EULA that says you can't refer to Guild Wars or Guild Wars Gold, or even sell it or advertise that you're selling it. The best you could do is claim that the ad infinges on Arenanet's intellectual property rights to the name "Guild Wars", and order the cessation of that use. This applies equally to any ad, right on down to Best Buy pimping GW on their front page.

Showing any sort of financial damage from gold sales is difficult at bestas well, since every serious gold-seller launders the gold, I'm sure, through several accounts and makes enough money to cover the cost of the accounts that get banned, and just buys more copies of the game, and that the value of virtual currency is highly debated.

Arenanet can't even get the sites that sell gold shut down, let alone the ads for them. People selling gold aren't even profiting illegally from Arenanet's work, since selling gold is legal.

Look, I don't want to sound like I support the practice. I don't, I think it does bad things to my game experience. I sincerely hope that all the sellers and all the buyers of in-game gold for real money get caught and banned. But the laws and regulations regarding the exchange of real currency for virtual currency are... well, pretty non-existent. Second Life "sells money" all the time. WoW gold selling is a million dollar business.

I just don't see how google has an obligation to take down ads for gold sales. If they do, it's more of a courtesy to Arenanet. The ads only vaguely run afoul of Google's terms of use, and only really run afoul of Arenanet's if the poster has a GW account.

Xenex Xclame · Nov 29, 2006, 09:49 PM // 21:49

I know you dont want to sound like you support it, i didnt even start to think that.I know you are just trying to show that i might be saying this as this is the way it is and nothing else.

We agree on the certain things and i believe we get our point acrros, no need to go further as im sure others understand it too.

Thank you for helping to clarify

Nov 29, 2006, 08:32 AM // 08:32	#2
Enko Forge Runner Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: VA Profession: Mo/	yes they're violating the EULA but those people selling are probably making more money than having to purchase another copy to continue selling . ..

Nov 29, 2006, 02:28 PM // 14:28	#4
mrgoat Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Jul 2006	I think google means those in the "legally enforceable" sense. In the legal sense, I don't think gold sellers are violating any laws by selling gold. Nor is Anet violating any laws by enforcing their EULA. EULA's are still on shaky ground concerning how binding they are/can be. Besides, the gold seller may not even have a GW account - they could be brokering the transaction for someone who does, and therefore the gold seller wouldn't ever have agreed to the GW EULA in the first place. I guess the answer is "sometimes".

Nov 29, 2006, 03:45 PM // 15:45	#5
Xenex Xclame Desert Nomad Join Date: Mar 2006 Guild: DPX Profession: R/	Its not sometimes, it is simply yes they are violating googles agreement. regulations, code of conduct, or third party rights (including without limitation intellectual property rights). In plain english it is saying that you are not allowed to use google to break rules of other places.Reporting these ads , as most of them are fully automated, probably gets them removed, it doesnt stop the gold sellers as they just get a new add.

Nov 29, 2006, 04:58 PM // 16:58	#6
Erudition Academy Page Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Q&A section Guild: Unique Warriors [UnWr]	The EULA gives ANet a justifiable reason to ban offenders. Of course, they can ban whoever they want, but they might not necessarily be able to give a valid reason and lose credibility.. Also, I'm not sure what a EULA's place is in the law... does some research when he finds time

Nov 29, 2006, 05:45 PM // 17:45	#9
MegaMouse Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: south mississippi Guild: Warriors Of Melos WOM Profession: E/N	Banning for the sellling of gold is still sticky situation. If you go to E-Bay you will find over 100 instances of gold for sale for several online games and not jus Guild Wars. Are they breakng the EULA, yes, is it worth it to them to continue, if players want to buy gold then the answer is yes, as long as there is a demand for something then the "illegal" activity will continue. In order for the staff at A-Net and NC-Soft to catch the players selling the gold would entitle going to the sellers sites or E-Bay and buying from the seller what this does is catch one account where the seller might have several. Unless players turn in the people that they buy the gold from (who would freely admit to doing that) or NC-Soft nd A-Net take a more active role in catching the players doing such activities it will continue. I am not condoning buying or selling gold through E-Bay or other means but until the trade system tha tcurrently is in place is redone, it will continue. Also I do not believe that A-Net or NC-Soft will take an active role in catching the sellers due to the fact it will take money out of their pockets that they do not want to part with (in order for a seller doing business through E-Bay to give anything away within Guild Wars most require payment before delivery, no money no sale which means that NC-Soft and A-Net will have to part with some cash before they learn the identies of the sellers account). This might seem like a long rant to most but his is how I feel about the situation. Mega Mouse

Nov 29, 2006, 06:37 PM // 18:37	#12
bog boy Krytan Explorer Join Date: Jul 2006 Guild: pxks Profession: R/E	people also sell gold on ebay i think this is absolutely outrages and anet needs to do something about it FAST

Nov 29, 2006, 07:01 PM // 19:01	#14
bad person Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Feb 2006	My understanding of how it generally works is that there is a company that farms the gold and then sells it to the Ebay sellers who, in turn, sell it and deliver it. I may be wrong but, based on the guaranteed delivery times that many of the sellers offer, I can't imagine there being another person in the mix.

Nov 29, 2006, 07:15 PM // 19:15	#15
mrgoat Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Jul 2006	Gold farming is a whole industry. They have whole teams of people going about this. Ebay is one small fraction of the gold market, there's sites set up that do just this business exclusively, have proper bank channels, can take credit transactions on their own, etc. The guaranteed delivery time is almost proof that there's more than just the farmers and ebayers involved - They probably have at least a delivery guy, a team of farmers, and a manager who organizes everything. In fact, some tv station had a documentary on about this the other day, and that's almost exactly what they had. Don't get me wrong, I also want gold selling gone. I just don't think the issue of the ads is as simple as "That ad is for something Arenanet disallows. It must therefore be removed".

Nov 29, 2006, 08:13 PM // 20:13	#16
xxSilhouette Desert Nomad Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Lost in the sands of time... Guild: Blood Of Orr [BoO] Profession: R/Rt	I've seen WoW and Guild wars Power Leveling/Gold advertised on wiki before o_O Its been a while, but i do remember seeing it there. Personally I don't think even if they stopped advertising it, that it would matter - beacuse someone could still very easily find it.

Nov 29, 2006, 09:49 PM // 21:49	#19
Xenex Xclame Desert Nomad Join Date: Mar 2006 Guild: DPX Profession: R/	I know you dont want to sound like you support it, i didnt even start to think that.I know you are just trying to show that i might be saying this as this is the way it is and nothing else. We agree on the certain things and i believe we get our point acrros, no need to go further as im sure others understand it too. Thank you for helping to clarify